Lineup Behind the Scenes: Part 2

You really should get used to it. You're going to be hearing a lot of her.

Yola is one of the artists I'm most excited about.

And it's not only am I excited about her being a bongaroo,

but she's also somebody that allows me to talk about me.

Well, that is the requirement, isn't it?

It is, right.

I'm going to guess that's part of why you like me, because I let you go on and on.

Yeah, you're very docile. And you really let me just keep going and going no matter what.

Yeah, the way I look at it, it's the old give them enough rope. But you go ahead.

I've never been given enough. I'll never find the end of that rope.

It's Barry Courter. I'm Brad Steiner. This is the What Podcast, part two of our two parts.

Sit down with the guys at book. Your bongaroo lineup each and every year.

Brian and Steven and a special guest from AC Ted.

Ted Heineck, who set all this up and gave us the idea for it, which is awesome.

Again, like we said last week, we've ran out of ideas.

Well, sort of. Yeah, we're still getting there.

They keep making the lineup and there's new people. But yeah, that was terrific of Ted to come up with that.

And for those guys, we said it before for Steve and Brian to give us so much time as well as all that insight.

You know, it's still I don't know about you, but, you know, we left there pretty excited about what we got.

But here it is two weeks later and it's still pretty doggone cool.

Yeah. And if you listen to part one, we appreciate it.

And I'm sure that you had a ton of questions that you probably had.

So send them to us. We don't mind it. Love to get your input at the what underscore podcast.

What podcast dot com. Drop us a line.

You know, the the list of questions that, you know, I want around to I want to do this again.

And hopefully one of them comes back to Camp Nut Butter and we get them a little boozed up

and we can get a little more information out of them.

Hopefully, we'll give away tacos booze like last year.

It worked. Whatever, whatever it takes.

So I think they will. I'm glad you said that because I think they were I think they enjoyed it.

And I think they're willing to do around to I hope so because it's not something that's ever been done.

I think I don't know if anybody's really ever had this conversation with people who,

you know, book I don't know if there are Coachella podcasts,

but I sure as hell think that they're probably not getting the Golden Voice guys sitting down

explaining the booking process.

I totally agree for them to give us what they did was amazing.

And I think it opens up doors for future what we're going to do in the future.

I hope so. And if you haven't listened, please go back and listen to the first part of it.

There's just so much in there. There's news. There's insights.

There's, you know, explanations of the rationale behind all of it.

There's so much that we're going to talk about once this part is over.

We'll go through the whole thing and we'll recap.

But let's get right back into it. Now, where I wanted to start was a place where Brian made such a great point.

And Steve jumped in. I want to go back to that part first and then just to, you know, set the table.

And then we'll take off in part two. So here you go.

Part two of the What Podcast with the guys that book your Bonnarooo lineup.

Harsh reality is we say no a lot.

That's what I was going to say. I mean, we have some hard conversations year in, year out.

And it all ties in really to a lot of times to what Ted was saying.

It's like, you know, we get a lot of pressure and sometimes it's not the right fit for us.

You know, us being Bonnarooo. It's not the right timing for the artist.

And a lot of times that's a hard pill to swallow on the artist's side.

But but sometimes it's actually it's interesting.

There was an example this year. I'm not going to name names, but it was where where we wanted them on the event.

And they turned it down because they didn't think it was the right look for the artist.

And we didn't necessarily see eye to eye on where it fit in.

And so they were like, well, we're just going to wait.

And and totally respected that decision, you know, and we'll probably have her on the festival next year.

You know, just to piggyback on what Steve says, a lot of it is situational, too,

because where we are in the process sometimes dictates these decisions,

because if we're 80 percent of the way booked and we have an opportunity to put an artist on,

but we don't have the exact right opportunity that they see is a fit for them on the festival.

Sometimes it just doesn't work. Yeah. So your timing again, just going back to there.

There are so many factors that play into why a band does or does not end up on the lineup.

But just put a bow on this. I don't know.

It is pretty fun, though, to look back at past lineups and see a bit of a bit of a cafe stage.

Vampire Weekend played Thursday. Kings of Leon played early a first stop.

Yeah, that's why I don't know.

Alabama Shades played a cafe stage.

It is that teeny tiny print at the bottom of the poster. It's amazing.

And sometimes you're like, oh, man, do you remember that band?

Sometimes you're like, oh, shit, you remember it. Like, look at that.

I mean, I think I think there's one where like the Black Keys are like the third to last on the line.

You know, I mean, that's where I think that's where I was trying to go is like you've got to take so much pride

in the fact that that these are these are artists that are major, major, major stars now.

And you guys got to have them in these these tiny spots and watch them grow.

There's got to be an enormous amount of pride there.

But to your point a couple of minutes ago, when you said that you don't did you say something like you try not to do back to back

or you try not to do multiple years, you give them a window of three to four years.

It's not a hard and fast rule. There's always fluidity there.

And like depending on an artist's trajectory and where they are in their career,

it is very difficult for us to repeat year over year, much less two or three years,

just because of the sheer amount of artists that are out there in any given booking cycle.

There are obviously a tremendous amount more artists than there are slots we have at the festival.

You know, obviously we're trying to present a fresh round of artists each year.

I go back to and I don't want to go backwards,

but the year that Dua Lipa did a Thursday night and then turned around was was damn near top of the lineup the next year.

I mean, that what conversation? There's an exception to every rule.

You know, but again, you know, as a as a general rule, I mean, just look back.

I mean, you know, you don't see a lot of artists playing back to back years,

much less every couple of two, three years.

You're right. Because of because of you guys and other festivals, my bucket list is very, very short now.

There are a handful of artists that I want to see.

But how about with you guys, Dolly, we've talked about,

but you know, maybe that you haven't been able to get that you really want to get.

There's definitely a good handful. I'm going to.

You do what you want. I'm going to refrain from naming any names just because I like I like to keep a dolly.

I'll accept for dollies. Yeah, I mean, you can name it because you never know what we're working on.

But yeah, there's there are definitely some and there's there's some that that we tried that.

Unfortunately, we won't ever have the opportunity to book now.

You know, I'm trying to think, you know, to me, the number one was Prince, you know,

and I think that, you know, that one, you know, again, not for lack of trying.

In fact, you came pretty close one time and and it was pretty close.

Me thought we had it. Yeah. Really. Mm hmm.

What happened? Didn't work out. OK. All right.

Yeah. You know, I wonder what in your way in my world, I understand pretty close means,

but I don't know in your world what pretty close means is is pretty close.

And this goes for any artist if they're pretty close. Is it a is it a money thing?

Is it a production thing? Is it paperwork's in hand, but just not signed?

No, it's not. It wasn't that close. It was just a I thought I thought we were close to a confirmation.

How about that? And ultimately, for a number of different reasons, it didn't end up working.

But how many of those heartbreakers you have? It's a lot. Yeah.

Yeah, it happens a lot. A couple, two, three, five, depending on how many we go after a year.

You know, is it is it is it because in the success that you have, is it dependent?

I mean, the word is not dependent, but how much of it is so because you have great relationships with management or

booking agents or when you have somebody that just needs a little bit more work?

Are you willing to go fly and talk to this booking agent or management team?

How much of that legwork are you still doing at this point that you were you're probably doing a lot more five, ten years ago?

We still do it. We definitely still do it.

You know, if we have if we have our site set on a particular act, we will do what we need to do to get it done.

You know, and and that's if that's fly or go see the band and like go meet them backstage or, you know, whatever to tell the story.

But yeah, we'll never buy anybody a car.

You never bought a car and try to. We're way too.

We will. We will buy a car. Jay Z.

We've got a car for you. Yeah, I'll do it.

You're you're definitely not above bribing.

Yeah, I was just like something happens because we have partners, you know, like we got a text this week about, you know, a potential like add on for 2020 was one of our partners out in L.A.

What do you think about this idea?

Like Steve and Brian are in there every single day thinking about this.

And I think that's a huge part of why it matters.

They've been doing it forever.

They've got great institutional memory.

They really know music.

And and that's what makes this whole thing go.

But they could book the best lineup in the world.

But if, you know, Jeff and the team don't deliver the experience on site, if Jacob and Ben don't hold up their end and do an excellent job marketing it, it's the touch points across the board with the artist liaison.

With the artist shuttle like transport.

It's it's really everything.

It's like, you know, creating a city for the weekend that then some of some of us, especially these two guys, are living to build for the next year, a year and a half out.

And I think that's really what makes it all work, because when you're down there at Camp Nut Butter having a great time, you're having a great time because you don't you don't have to think about all the things that aren't going the way that you think.

You don't have to think about all the things that aren't going the way that you would want them to go because somebody's already thought through that and has made it the best experience possible for your camp for that year.

And then each year we try to make everything better.

So I think we can't lose sight of that.

Like sometimes, you know, I'm not in the heavy booking with Bonnarooo, but I've got a booking background and we all like to think, oh, it's all booking and listen, booking drives the show.

But everything else that comes with it is critical to the Bonnarooo fan experience and how they pull through the toll booths and how long that takes and how the search goes and how friendly everybody is and the food and the drinks and the pricing.

There has just been a massive amount of thought that goes into all of it.

And that's, you know, almost 20 years in.

That's really what makes it work.

I've always said that if your favorite act is on the lineup, it's the best festival ever. And if you're not, it's the worst.

Who is your favorite act?

We've heard that before.

You can say who your favorite act is.

You're so millennial, Barry.

I was going to say.

No, I usually say that to people who are criticizing a festival. But how do you guys define success?

I mean, this lineup has been getting mostly praised since it dropped. But how do you guys define whether you put together a good lineup or not?

Are we selling tickets?

I mean, I think that's a pretty good, I mean, I don't know.

I think that.

You said earlier you're going to buy them all.

We are.

Sure.

Yeah.

Some sell more tickets than others. And that's what I mean.

You look at it and say, wow, that was a good lineup. Why didn't it do? And why is this one and not that one?

I mean, a lot of times though, we can look back and see maybe on some of the ones that didn't do so well, where we didn't actually deliver the best lineup that we could have.

Or we did deliver the best lineup that we could have that year. But it just wasn't because I mean so much of it is just timing and things like that.

I don't know. I mean, before like the day before we released this lineup, you know, Brian and I've been working on this for, you know, well over a year.

And we were talking like, like, what do you think? And we're both just kind of like, I don't know.

We'll see. We've been staring at it and looking at it and like internalizing it for so long.

Then we're like, I guess we'll find out tomorrow. I mean, we think it's good, but you don't take it or like how many people do you actually share it with to let it like get like an outsider view and say, what do you think about this?

You do that at all?

You don't have teenagers in the house.

We run we run. I know. No, no, no. I mean, we run we run ideas by like lots of people on the team and the Bonnarooo team, the, you know, staff here.

I mean, the full lineup.

We collaborate with the team. It's not just, you know, two bros in an office.

No, I'm staying together.

Nobody wants that.

We ultimately are making the decisions on what is.

I'd love to see that line.

Yeah.

We're making the ultimate decision on what is chosen or not, but it's a it's you know, there's definitely a lot of team input.

Do you guys feel as though as individuals though, do you feel like you have certain strengths in certain genres more so than you do somewhere else?

Like, for instance, you might be more of a hip hop guy and you just know it.

I think we obviously have our personal likes musically.

But it's our job to know all of it. And so we are listening to music all day every day.

We are reading, studying, looking, talking to agents, managers, you know, industry folks.

I mean, this is literally we live this.

And so, you know, Steve might be better at some of the more indie stuff or as I might be a little bit better at some of the rock pop stuff, but we all know it.

You know, and it's not like like having to convince him or turn him on to an artist because for the most part, he already knows it.

And vice versa.

So it really if we didn't do that, then it would be hard because, you know, we would constantly be having to say, like, if I'm not listening to any hip hop and Steve is and he's like, well, why don't you know this?

And I'm like, well, I don't want to book it because I don't never heard of it.

We really have to have that conversation.

Have there been total disagreements?

Absolutely.

Sure.

Do we want to go over one?

No, we don't want to go over them.

But yeah, we disagree a lot.

Yeah.

Going back to it.

I mean, sometimes we do, you know, sell have to sell each other a little harder on something than, you know, it's not because we don't know the band.

It's because we don't want to.

But, you know, exactly, because we because we see something that, you know, we feel like we feel very invested in and we want to, you know, but I mean, that but that goes to something interesting because like it's great because it is very collaborative.

Like it's not just like, man, like if one person was like booking Bonnarooo or whatever, it's really it makes it really fun and dynamic.

And like, I think you can see a lot of the results by looking at the lineup and looking at like when the schedules come out and how you experience it on site that like like it's not just one person sitting there and putting this thing together.

It's like ideas and constant conversation and like riffing off of someone else's ideas, you know, doing it in that way.

I think really, really, really like, you know, is hopefully clear.

And, you know, once you're on the on the festival site and experiencing experiencing like from the first up to the last off, you know, that kind of thing.

I was just going to say, like, I think everyone here on the work of Steve and Brian that they're doing, which is so great, is super proud when the lineup comes out.

And it's really important to all of us.

But there are a couple of factors because the validation comes from, you know, the people that we're all serving, which is the Bonnarooo ticket buyer.

Like if they're not buying tickets, this thing is over.

So everything that happens is with them in mind. It created an experience that they really delight in and love.

However, we have no control over the economy.

So like in the years where, you know, people don't have as much discretionary income, we're going to see a dip in ticket sales because those fans don't have as much money.

And then the other thing, this is what Ashley always says, Ashley Caps, who is the president of the business, he always says we're like miners who are out there, you know, trying to get scarce minerals.

And resources, Brian and Steve can only mine the artists that are out there in this cycle.

And if a couple of them that were really key parts of the overall headline experience don't want to do Bonnarooo or are going to skip it this time around, they're really limited.

There are only a handful of artists that can play the elevated headline spots.

And I think that's another factor that really ties into the not the proud part, but the ticket sales part.

Because if you can't get whoever just because they're not touring, it's not possible.

That may be a factor in your overall sales at the end of the year.

That's a great analogy. You're not creating the gold. You're mining the gold.

We're just mining it. Yeah, we're miners.

The reason why I asked that originally, what's your lineup look like? What's your lane? What are you?

What is your path going to be on Friday? Because look, Friday to me, look, I try to keep away from some of the platitudes because I've said them on this show plenty of times.

But I mean, you guys, you guys are creating such a feeling and such an experience.

And I've said this to Ashley. I thought, you know, Bonnarooo and Ashley pretty much saved music about 16 years ago.

Your lineup, your path, what does it involve on a Friday?

I have 16 artists I want to see on Friday. It's the damn near the best lineup day I have ever seen in a festival.

And I feel like I've been to damn near all of them in the country. Friday is unbelievable.

It's pretty stacked. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how we ended up with that. No, it worked out really well.

That's probably a better question for my wife, who I usually, you know, let let let you might be a plot.

I think I felt like not to get you out there, but it just reminded me when when I started like sort of bouncing off what we were working on for this year with my wife.

And as excited as she got, I was like, OK, maybe we are actually on to something, you know, like her lane is definitely like like that level of excitement coming from the wives was really like felt pretty good.

Have you ever overbooked an artist that overbook is the wrong word.

Have you ever booked an artist that you saw was petrified and killed it or the opposite. You saw somebody that saw a moment happening in their career.

They could see it coming and they were petrified. You didn't expect him to do as well as they did.

And they absolutely blew it away. You ever have any one of those? I can't think of anything.

Yeah. You ever find an artist that's just feels like the moment is just too big for them.

We think never. You don't think so. But I wouldn't say it if it.

No, I wonder for you guys as music professionals, if you look at an artist like, oh, yeah, but it's really hard to also say because if you're not a fan of that artist, like sometimes you just don't know.

And sometimes people are really feeling it who are into it in the pit. And you just got there for the last 10 minutes.

It's hard to answer that. The only thing I could say is I think we're really good at programming and slotting and positioning, but we don't hit 100 percent of the time.

And I think that we've there's definitely been some moments over the years where we look back and thought maybe we would have done like I would have not put that band on that stage in that time.

Like, is that makes sense? The genesis of that question is war and treaty, wherein I don't know if they knew the moment that they were about to have.

And they seemed like, oh, God, this is this is the scariest moment of my life.

And then they go out there and they I feel like they changed their life. I mean, it changed.

One of my favorite shows I've ever been to a Bonnarooo. I mean, I'm bawling at the end of it.

They're bawling after it afterwards. They're just hugging everybody as if, you know, they had just had this amazing experience that that they feel as though may have just changed.

Well, I think that's a better way to approach the question versus people sort of like not like succeeding in the slot that they were given or, you know, being underwhelming or something.

It's more about those those times where it's an act that like has gone above and beyond and like the experience and like the changing like that moment.

Like you said, war and treaty like that was like a moment that was changing for the band and you, et cetera, et cetera.

And I can think of like like Japan droids on a Thursday night years ago, like that band still is like they hate festivals.

The only festival they want to play is Bonnarooo because they still to this day tell me that that was their number one, maybe their favorite show of all time.

That's you know, and I was there and I watched it and like it was insane.

And we put that band on a Thursday night and like who the F knew who they were.

And I can't tell you how many comments from artists we get. Yes. Bonnarooo is their favorite show of all of all time.

You know, and you know, another one that comes to mind that I'll share that, you know, this is what I'm really proud of because she's had a long and storied and amazing career is Sheryl Crow.

You know, and Sheryl Crow, we still get, you know, comments from that camp that that was her favorite show she's ever played.

And that's, you know, I don't know how many shows Sheryl Crow's played that that's that makes us proud. But again, it all it to me, it all goes back to the fans because we have the best audience in the world.

And if they're not showing up and being enthusiastic for every single show that we're putting out there, then artists aren't responding in that way.

And that that's what makes it. John Prine last year. I mean, he danced off the stage.

Paul Janoway talked about that there was a goal of his to play. We watched him come out early on, stood at the front of the stage and just smiled.

We learned a lot. We did learn a lot. It was a great conversation.

We've got a little bit more left for you and then we'll wrap up the whole thing here in a second.

But first, we want to jump in and say thank you to some patrons because our patrons thing, you know, we walked into it really nervous and it turned out OK.

One, two, maybe a family member. We didn't offer a family membership, by the way.

And, you know, I don't know if it's worth pointing out, but I think it's unbelievable.

We sold out the upper tiers first. First, right. The twenty dollars a month thing.

I had no idea. You guys are awesome for doing that. It's amazing.

Let's go through a couple of David Grimes, Leslie Condor, Frank Swanson, Phil Hanley, Dustin Gehrig, Chloe Howe.

We'll have some more to announce a little bit later on in the show.

The thing that is amazing about the patrons is the conversations that they are having offline.

And they were having a conversation with just the patrons.

So our Lord Taco, our buddy Lord Taco, our Lord and Savior Lord Taco created us a chat group inside the patrons.

So not only do you get the rewards that are on each tier that are available, like a mixtape from one of us and a T-shirt and all that kind of stuff.

But you also get in on our little secret conversation.

Maybe we drop a little hints of knowledge through it.

Yeah, I think you and I are both continually surprised, amazed, whatever the word is, that the level of what do you want to call it?

Interest, love, year round that all of us have.

You know, it's not just you and me. Right.

Now, it is true. I was having this conversation the other day with someone.

I just come September, maybe August.

There isn't that much to talk about when it comes to Bonnarooo.

So, you know, sure, we do like to take a few months off, but it does feel like, you know, seven to eight months out of my year.

This is a driving conversation.

Somebody on Reddit, I think yesterday pointed out 21 more Fridays.

Oh, I don't want to talk about like that. I know it's like that's very weird for you and me.

It's 21 more Wednesdays.

It's a lot. It's a long week, but it's great.

Yeah. So hopefully this will start our mostly every week show up until the festival.

Take some weeks off here and there. Just give you a heads up.

But yeah, from from here on out, you can probably expect a new show every week.

Let's get back into it.

Part two continues now, the what podcasts with the guys that book your Bonnarooo lineup, Brian, Steve and Ted from AC Entertainment.

I've always wondered because one of the things that Bonnarooo is known for the thing that is is so of their brand is a super jam.

How do you book that? How in the world does that happen?

Do you have to find the right person who's willing to just take it and run with it?

Or do you have to specifically go and find the artist and add it to a contract?

No, it's not the latter.

It's more about finding an act that's going to embrace the what we're trying to achieve and that can, you know,

wants to really put in the time to put together a special moment and wants to present that of honor.

And, you know, a lot of it is relationship based.

And, you know, what for us, it's, you know, so Vanessa is an artist that we've wanted to do something special with for years out there.

And, you know, when I remember the moment I had a conversation with their manager about the fact that they were even considering the toying with the idea of doing the interpretations of their music with a full live band, my brain immediately went to really wonder if we could wonder if we could do something special.

So even then I kind of had me immediately. I thought Super Jam and so I think a Sylvaness of Super Jam might be one of the most unique things that you guys have come up with.

And now that I know it's with a full band now it starts to make sense.

And I heard that the other day that is such a weird poll.

But I love weird. And so we did.

They did a short run of this in November of 2019 this past year and we presented the show at the Ryman and I remember seeing the show in that moment and I knew we had a home run, because it was one of the most, you know, impressive and dynamic and beautiful and incredible shows I saw last year.

And I just think I cannot wait for that to play at Monterey and to have it be a super jam, which means there's going to be some fun things off our sleeves.

It's going to be an amazing moment. They got to come up with the friends and family. Well, they call in favors. We do it together.

You know, it's a collaborative effort.

You know this is similarly the Grand Ole Opry you know we we, you know, we work very much hand in hand with the Opry team on crafting a Bonnarooo moment for the Grand Ole Opry it's the same thing with the Super Jam it's very much in collaboration with the festival and with us and, you know, you know, obviously

the artists really drive it but we're bringing a lot of ideas to the table when we're really working with them. We're using our relationships, the band's relationships to try to come up with some pretty amazing special moments and special guests.

Have there been occasions where maybe guys have played and then seen a super jam and said, I want to do that?

All the time. All the time.

Hell yeah.

Yeah, and you know, and that's really, you know, whether organically is a word or not, a lot of times the super jams almost come together in that way because we have artists that we book and they're playing the festival and we don't think of them in that way but then they'll reach out and say, hey have you thought about so and so they might want to do the super jam.

We think, oh that's really interesting and so we go, yeah, or everyone. Yeah, and so, yeah, you never know who's going to be interested and sometimes it's such reaching out and saying hey Billy Idle will you come do this or hey Brittany Howard will you come do this or sometimes it's them going with, hey I'd like to, I'd like to participate in this.

Anybody on the spot ever decide to do it just on the fly.

Great question.

I'm sure that's happened. I'm sure that's happened.

Those shows are very planned. You know I mean they're not. It's not like in the moment. Hey let's do this cover song right now I mean it you know they're they're they're rehearsed their thought through.

They're obviously very improvisational in nature.

But there's a lot of planning that goes involved there's rehearsals that go involved that are involved as well.

Who on this lineup specifically best. We've talked about Lizzo earlier who on this line of best represents your brand.

Wow.

There's a lot of them.

I mean, I don't know there's a, it's hard to say any one band. Yeah, I mean I kind of think that really at the end of the day like everybody that's on the lineup represents is embody the festival and what we're doing.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean it is is Tame Impala more on brand for Montero than Tool. I mean they're both representative right because that's a tribute to the to the brand itself right is that it's.

That's what I think is. Yeah. Yeah.

The thing about the lineup is that it's just strong from top to bottom. What did we call it heavy. It's just heavy. It's heavy with good. It's insanely low rounded, and you guys should be celebrated for it makes it.

But you mean you guys should really and went back to the point that you guys made earlier the way that you can look back on a lineup is unbelievable the way that you can like backwards convince yourself like that lineup was great but in the front of it you like want.

It's never. We say this on the show all the time it is never about a lineup and I know I know Ted is right and I know most people I get it when they say that, you know lineup creates dollars but the beauty about boundary was it's almost insulated from, from the, the ebbs

and flows of an industry the ebbs and flows of a of a cycle or financial crisis or whatever because you've got a experience that is unlike anything else on the planet and you've got a brand that is as strong as, as you can find that's connected to its audience and you know you guys are at least we like to showcase that on this show, and you know we appreciate you guys giving us this time because this is, this is not something that's happened, I think ever.

So this is the pretty big deal.

Well it's been it's been a lot of fun talking to you and we, we enjoy it. I honestly we are such nerds about this we could literally talk about this all day, all day.

We can meet up at Camp Nut Butter.

We'll have a Camp Nut Butter meet up.

Meet the bookers.

You know Ken Weinstein was a guest last year. We couldn't get him to leave. We could not get him on a camp. That sounds about right.

Ken's the best. Ken Weinstein owning camp is really one of the highlights of my weekend I mean just shooting off one liners that everybody you know it's a really invigorating for you.

It was like a radio show. Well that's what I do for a living.

That's great. Thank you guys. Guys amazing. Our pleasure. Anytime.

Thanks for coming up to Knoxville. Can't wait till June.

Well where to start. There's so many places. First off thank you so much for joining us and going through that amazing masterclass as to how a lineup is booked.

How a festival is built. Not just a lineup but how a festival is built with Ted, Brian and Steve from AC Entertainment.

They could not have been more generous and gracious with their time and their information.

First off let's thank the rest of our patrons that signed up in the last few weeks. Dan Sweeney, Lucy Young, Linda Doles, Chelsea Davis, Jason Hazelbaker and Ella Watson.

Thank you guys so much. Let's get into it. Let's recap what we've heard over the last two weeks.

If you haven't listened to part one I don't know how in the world you missed that. So go back and listen to that and come back to the recap.

I guess we can start with the news. The news that they gave us and the more I listen, when I listen back to it I realize they give us a lot more news than I thought.

Like for instance King Gizzard is going to be playing late night. There's still some conversations back and forth as to what stage they're going to be on.

I don't know. They didn't give us any sort of hint and I didn't want to push because they had already dropped that piece of knowledge that they probably let slip.

The second piece of news, they have tried on Dolly. They've tried Dolly a lot and they do it every year it seems like.

Yeah, that shouldn't surprise anybody. I'm betting you could probably make a list of all the acts that we want to see and they probably tried. Stones.

They got U2, they got McCartney. I was interested to hear and I'm betting it was McCartney that took him five years.

I bet he was one of those that took that many years to get to negotiate. I found it fascinating how much that type of thing, that networking, that friend making, whatever you want to call it.

It's not just sit in a conference room and come up with a list and call an agent type of thing. It's get on a plane, get on a car, go see the show.

Get on a car. Get in a car. Sorry.

It's funny that you say that because you and I have both been in a room booking a festival and that's exactly what certain festivals do.

We have been part of a booking process years and years ago for a festival and it literally is show up to a conference room, give us some names, we'll make some calls.

They don't go out and do the legwork that it takes, the relationship building that requires years and decades almost to try and build.

Then on top of it, a lot of festivals, the reason why they die and go to that festival graveyard is because maybe they don't have the infrastructure built to have those relationships that can get you through ebbs and flows of the music cycle.

I would add to that a little. I don't think that's 100% right. I think the festival that you're talking about.

I don't really shoot for that. I shoot for about 75. I'm a solid C-staff.

I think the festival that you talk about is a lot of relationships but it gets more to the question you ask them was are there package deals?

If I take A, do I get B and C or you have to take B and C? Or if I get A this year?

That really surprised me.

I think that happens in the festival you're talking about that you and I have both been involved in and that surprised me that they don't do that kind of thing like you ask.

Here's the thing. Normally if somebody were to tell me that, I would just not believe them.

But I have no reason to not trust everything that they're saying.

They were so forthright and accommodating and open. They basically let us walk in there and play on their computers.

Pretty much. We took over their room, the TV, the computer.

Walked in Ashley's office, milled around, moved around some stuff, cleaned his windows.

The only thing they weren't going to give were things that hurt them professionally. They weren't going to say anything bad about anybody.

I really tried. I tried.

I know. I'm with you. There's no reason for them to have misled us.

It's just strange though when we think about especially the Cafe X, the lower card, the undercard stuff, how they wouldn't come along with some sort of management.

I'll just use this for an example.

If I have mom and pop records and I've got an up and coming artist that I really, really want to get an exposure and I think this is their moment,

I say, hey, can you put blank on because I'm giving you one of my better artists of mom and pop records.

My logical brain cannot think that that's possible.

But if you really believe in your brand and if you really, really think that you are the pinnacle and as good as you think that you are, you can say no to that.

That's brave. That's really, really brave.

I relisten to that interview and that whole part of the conversation is what stood out to me.

And you have more of an insight into it because of your line of work.

As a newspaper guy, I'm getting whatever's coming to town or whatever's hot at the moment.

And that idea of being able to look ahead six months, 12 months, 18 months and say we're going to have a new album out then we're going to be touring or we're not.

You know, this is June 2020 is a good time for us or a bad time for us.

That is a that's next level kind of stuff.

So I know that I didn't think about I know this is a sidebar and it may be a conversation for another day.

One day when we don't have much to talk about, we start talking about the industry, you know, being like you said, being the line of this that I am in.

It really worries me that they can predict it that far out, not the bookers, but the industry in general, because it almost feels like it's being set up and it's already predetermined.

And, you know, you go back to this this Grammy thing that happened over the past week and a half and how she accused the Grammys of, you know, you know, rigging the whole process.

You know, when you really, really want to think the worst of all of this, you wonder how much of this is predestined, right?

Already sure made up to be successful, no matter if it's good or not.

That's a that's an industry conversation.

And that's something that sort of even in my industry freaks me out a bit.

It's that you can predict it so well.

It may be the reason why you can predict it so well is that they already know that scares me.

I mean, you and I've had many, many conversations indirectly about this.

And yeah, I mean, you said last week talking about Lizzo that they told you she would be doing arenas.

Now, some of that, I'm sure, is just looking at data.

But some of that is you tell me they know how much money they're going to put into an artist.

They know at this point or not.

That's a good point.

So they wouldn't put as much money into insert artists here unless they knew specifically the ROI was going to make sense in the long run.

And the way that they can manipulate what is successful and what isn't, I think, is the point that I'm making that scares me the most.

And when I say they, I mean, they generally in the industry like the overlords where you think that maybe only two or three people run the entire company.

People run the entire music industry.

That's where it gets really, really scary.

Yeah. One of the things I've noticed, I mean, I've been doing this 31 years.

I used to get box loads of albums and CDs hoping that we would review them.

The last several years, it's trickled down to just a handful.

And it finally dawned on me the ones that I was getting were the acts that are big or going to be big.

You know what I mean?

They they quit sending me the hope force.

They were just sending the ones that did blow up and became big.

You know what I mean?

And yeah, it almost feels as though as a as a as a buyer of the product, it almost feels as though I have no control here.

Yeah, it almost feels matrix like, you know, and I know this feels like a very weird conversation to go into, but it does.

It does freak me out a little bit.

Well, except I can bring it back to to Bonnarooo and the cafe stages.

That's what I think they've always done very, very well in the entire time I've been going is.

I always felt like it didn't matter that anybody on that lineup was going to have a hit record or not.

They were just going to be good.

You know what I mean?

Good. Yeah, that's right.

And they they actually said that in the chat.

Yeah, they did.

You know, they know what they're putting on a stage is quality.

Yeah, and they know they're going to have an audience there.

It's now on the artist to make something of that moment.

Yeah, I mean, and I started to say during that interview and I didn't, but they have they have earned a huge level of trust.

You'll see this is where this is where I just don't believe them.

I will straight up say I don't believe them.

Look, they know what is that good.

They can be as humble as they want to.

They have broken artists.

Now, I know it takes a lot of people and a lot of effort and a lot of like foresight to know exactly when your moment should be on the artist part, bringing it on stage.

I get all of that, but they have got to look in the private moments at each other like, you know what, it wasn't for us.

I don't think they'd be where they are.

Oh, yeah, it works both ways.

You know, that's a huge get to be able to put played Bonnarooo on your resume.

No question.

No question that opens that at least gets you a return phone call.

Right.

I would think now what you do with it is on you.

But I mean, well, that's sort of acts that you and I walked up to and been like, you know, maybe it's just not for me.

That's sort of what that's sort of what Ted said when when I you know, when we asked our base, I asked the question, who has not delivered?

Have there been artists that just they don't bring they don't bring something that fits the moment where this is like they if they say this is the moment that you get to make your next step.

This is going to be your your opening to a huge audience.

Who didn't bring it and what do you feel when you see them not bringing it?

You know, the answer Ted gave was everyone.

Everyone brings it.

That was politically correct, which is, you know, I guess.

But we but I think his overall point was the better one when he said it's not just about like them bringing it.

I know it's it's on it's on the artists to to seize the moment.

They didn't look there are plenty of artists that we watched and said that's just but that was Ted's overall point.

I think sometimes they have seized the moment.

It's just not for you. Yeah, no question that there's somebody in the pit that is going crazy about this.

The fans that have shown up for that band love it.

And it's just not ours. It's not not our recipe.

That was his point was that maybe you just did walk up and you missed the whole lead up to that and maybe you you know, you've been there all day.

So your headspace is different than somebody else.

Sure. No question about that.

Let's go to some of the other news that they they broke.

So they've they've tried a lot with Dolly and they're going to try again next year.

They've got King Gizzard late night.

The other one that I thought was interesting and we talked about a little bit is that they listen.

They listen to the surveys. They listen to the Reddits.

They listen to, you know, the the reactions of the audience and the crowd and their people mean a lot to them.

And they do not want to disappoint them.

The other thing that I thought was the big one, really the big one, was that they had Prince.

Yeah, they thought they had Prince. They thought they had Prince.

Yeah, the crown jewel. Now, I know everybody's crown jewel now is Daft Punk.

At this point, it's just a joke.

But the fact that, you know, Prince was this close now, I pressed and I asked, you know, what does this close mean?

Because I honestly don't know. I mean, I don't know what this close means.

I mean, you could you could say that you're this close to booking Jesus. Yeah. You know, I mean, we almost have we just missed him.

Yeah. But he excuse me.

But looking in his eyes, I could tell how close they were.

Yeah. Now, I don't know that, you know, made it to the air and I don't know if you felt the weight of him.

But I looked in his eyes and I asked him, what does this close mean to you?

And he made me feel as though it was there. It was there.

I asked if it was, you know, just not a signature paperwork and it didn't get to that level.

But I think I think it's some degree at that level, a handshake.

You know, yeah, I'm coming. If Prince wants to come.

Same with Dolly. We've laughed about that many, many times.

It's all up to Dolly. If she wants to come, she'll come.

If she doesn't want to come, it's not because they're not willing to, you know, give her whatever she's asking.

Mark this down for if one of them comes back to camp.

I want to know if I know they're not going to answer.

I want to know how much that offer was. Maybe it was off the record.

I've got if it's if it's double digits, man, would they ever offer double digits to somebody?

You know, that's a lot.

What I would want to know is how often the number is the deciding factor.

Interesting. You know what I mean?

Because I'm going to guess for a lot of those bands, if they want to play, it's not about the money.

Well, see, that's what they said. They want to they want somebody to want to be there.

Yeah, which is an easy way out of the money conversation because, you know, if you love me, if we're in a relationship, if you love me, you'll want to be with me.

I shouldn't have to force you to want to be with me, which is like we can get out of the money conversation pretty easily if you don't want to come here.

Yeah, I call it stupid money.

You know, there are many, many stories over the years I've heard of.

I'll give you for an example, there's a local high school here that has more money than than they should, and they book acts to come and play.

And they wanted to have James Brown. Well, he doesn't want to come play a high school, as you can imagine.

Excuse me?

This was years ago.

What story is this?

Well, no, what I'm saying is so he asked for stupid money and they gave it to him.

Stop it.

Yeah. So that's what I mean.

Write down what high school that is.

This is this is the strangest thing I've ever heard.

OK, I got it.

That is insane.

Yeah. So that's what I mean.

They're stupid money.

What would they what would they do with James Brown?

They had a senior party.

Oh, get out of here.

No, they do it all the time.

That makes me want to punch people.

You do not get James Brown be your senior senior party.

They had P-Funk one year.

Same thing.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

You know, James's people know I'm not going to do that.

And then they then he says, well, I'll do it for this.

And they get it.

Stupid money.

You know what the number was?

No.

OK. No.

But you asked for something completely out of the left field, thinking that there's no way that somebody you're wanting them to say no.

Correct. It is a no.

But if you're stupid enough to pay it, I'm going to come play.

And I don't know how much that's what I mean.

I don't think, you know, Dolly, for example, could ask for any number.

Right.

But she doesn't need the money.

It's not about the money.

Either she wants to play or she doesn't want to play.

Now, her management probably says we're not going below this number.

But it happens.

You know what I mean?

If they want to play, they'll work with you and give up.

And here's the thing.

I think I think the dirty little secret about all this is I think that they're working with a lot less of a budget than you think they are.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Exactly.

I think there are probably acts that get I mean, McCartney, I don't remember what I heard.

The rumor was what?

Two and a half, three million.

I thought it was five, five million.

I don't remember.

It's a bunch.

And that, to be honest, surprised me because he doesn't need the money.

I mean, the guys, the guys, OK, he's going to make it.

Yeah.

And I don't know if it becomes an ego thing.

You know, if they say, well, what's the highest you paid someone else?

Well, I have to have, you know, one dollar more than that.

I don't know.

But I don't think the money in that that a plus list, I think they will.

They work.

You know what I mean?

The other things that I thought were interesting and that I think are breaking news that it's really two guys.

And I know they talk about the the team and, you know, the C3 guy that that helps with the EDM stage and, you know, the plazas and those get booked separately.

I get it.

But that's stunning.

When it's all said and done, it's really two guys relationships with artists, management, et cetera, that really drive this this whole thing.

And it's worth pointing out, they've had two good years.

Right.

Well, here's the part they won't tell you.

And everybody that's listening here knows the elephant in the room.

They know that three years ago, four years ago wasn't doing so well.

And we know why, because it sort of got taken over by other entities.

And then when AC decided to lab, well, I don't know if they decided or not.

That's the wrong way of saying it.

But once it got put back in the AC AC's hands, you know, things started to turn around.

And now it seems as though the powers that be see how well this works and they're not going to screw with it.

Well, you and I talked about, I guess, last week, the fact that they've done it for what they say, 12 years, they've learned a lot.

You know, imagine bringing somebody brand new and dropping them in a room and saying, book, book this festival.

Yeah. Which probably gets to the three years and four years ago with the committee of many is a committee of none type of thing.

Too many chiefs.

Everybody probably had a who knows?

We weren't in that room. But yes, I was stunned that it's two people, but it seems to be the right to be the right to people.

And now the more like another thing I wanted to ask when I listen back, how often do you fight?

Like how have I understand that you disagree about artists?

But if you don't come in with the right mentality with another human being who is basically your professional crutch.

Yeah, I mean, you count on that person to come at you with the same energy to not fight with you, to respect you.

How often do those lines get blurred?

How often do you get just totally butthurt by somebody else and you have to stop talking for a little while?

Yeah, they said they fight about it.

If you're talking about this every day, like if I'm to believe you and you're talking about this every day and you're working on this nonstop

and you've got however many venues to book, you've got how many other festivals to book,

how often are you guys just like, I got to take a break from you?

Yeah, they didn't. We didn't get to how often, but they did say they argue.

That's an interesting question because they do it year round, right?

They're already working on next year. That is an interesting question.

They're working on festivals, they're working on venues.

And here's the other thing that I thought about along the same lines.

If you listen and I thought it was so interesting when I asked not the question that I asked, but I asked them,

what are you better at than what's your strength, what's your genre that you really, really feel comfortable in?

And Brian's answer was we need to know all of it. It is our job to know all of it.

And boy, that hit me like a ton of bricks. It's a job.

How often do they say to themselves, I'm just tired of absorbing content. I'm tired of listening to music.

Again, how often does the job that you have turn you into being soured on the product in which you're representing?

Well, again, I mean, you and I are peripherally in this business.

I mean, that's similar to what I do as a newspaper guy. I'm not supposed to have a preference.

You know, if we've got an act that's coming in that's whatever genre,

I have to show the same enthusiasm and energy and interest in writing a story about it.

So I kind of get that part of it. I get it. But I am in radio.

But dude, when I am out of work, the last thing I want to do is listen to radio.

What sucks is I became the reason I'm in radio is because I loved radio and I love listening to it.

I love being a radio nerd. Now I can't stand it because it's my daily. Sure. My day to day.

And that I was going to agree with. And then the second is how how many phone calls and emails and people like me coming up to them at Moon River and saying, I know who you should get.

You know, that's the nice one. How about the, you know, the label guy or the manager, you know, here, listen to this CD. You need to get these people that.

Would get old, I would think. Or how about again? OK, no kidding. How about this?

What about if you love a band and you realize who their manager is and then you're like, I hate that guy.

I hate that guy. And I know how bad this is going to be. Yeah. I mean, I want to know the bad days. Right.

I want to know when they argue. I want to know when they get tired of the job.

I want to know when they get like they're burnt out. And what do they do to get out of that?

That mindset, because, you know, we think of this. We are so hypercritical about every line on a festival poster.

We're so hypercritical of everything that happens on the farm because it may inconvenience us for a second or two.

Or we don't agree with one thing or the other. But my God, there are human beings that have to do this for a living.

And they are burnt out. They're tired. Some days they're just not in it. Yeah.

That's a great point. I mean, I always laugh about my job. You know, it beats digging a ditch.

I don't work on a roof for a living. But is it? Well, I'll give you this.

When I tell people I go to Bonnarooo every year, first of all, they can't believe that I can't.

That's question number one. You know, you camp in a tent and then they don't believe that it's work.

You know what I mean? It's work for me. I love it. I'm having a good time.

I'd rather be doing that than digging a ditch. True, true. But you know, it's work.

It's my friends. My friends and tacos, one of them, all my friends literally look at me as if I do not do anything during the day.

I think it's by that. Well, I mean, it makes it. I make it look easy.

But at some point you do some things for so long, you make it look pretty easy.

And, you know, that's just the nature. And I've done it enough times, you know, I have a routine.

I mean, my routine up there is pretty set. But since we've added Wednesday, going up on Wednesday for Media Day and Monday, it's a long haul.

Oh, do not, do not even pretend, pretend that us being there from Wednesday to Monday is any sort of work.

Now, I will even admit that there's no, it's not. Well, I'm not working. You're not. No, I'm not doing a damn thing.

I'm I know two years when I we've had we've had interviews with people at camp that I've slept through. Yes, that's true.

That's true. That is true. I'm not working. So, yeah, to your point, I mean, this that's what these guys do year round.

So, yeah, I imagine it does get a little where they just kind of got to say, I need a break. Yeah, I got to walk away.

I'm trying to think of anything else. I'm sure there's a ton here to go through. But I think it's probably a good place to stop.

I will say one more thing that I find to be really, really hysterical about everybody that works at AC and everybody that's inside the Bonnarooo world, you know, at the top.

Right. Even Ken does this. Quayar does this. All the AC entertainment people do this. Have you noticed how they say Bonnarooo? Yes.

Yes. And it makes me wonder that we're doing it all. We are saying it wrong.

They all say it a certain way. And I actually had somebody not related. Tell me there is a proper way to say it. Yeah.

But see, here's the thing that makes me so if you notice, go back and listen, everybody that we've ever talked to at AC always calls it Bonnarooo. Bonnarooo.

Yeah, that's on a route. We all say Bonnarooo. That's right. You got it. I didn't notice that.

Here's the thing that gets me. If it really is the way because all of them say it that way. Correct.

It's like they've been told, no, we are going to say it the proper way. And if nobody else does, that's on them. That's their inside thing. Right.

Yeah. No, they don't. They have never once corrected anyone. They never once said to anyone, hey, by the way, you actually pronounce it Bonnarooo.

It's true. Ashley says it that way. And he did tell me in his office just before you came in that this is his favorite festival. This is their favorite festival.

Yeah. I mean, I bet. Well, you know, I told him, I said, I always heard Big Ears was because that's kind of his baby. Yeah.

That's his that's his genre. But that was, you know, we asked Brian and them if if booking Bonnarooo was different than any others.

And they said, of course. So, you know, nothing. But I grew Bonnarooo.

I got to learn how to say it. Yeah, I do. I like it. It's fascinating that they've never once corrected anyone.

But yet they all say it a specific way. Yeah, that's true. All right. It's funny. You caught that because I did, too. There you go.

All right. That's Barry Courter. I'm Brad Steiner. Next week, we're really, really excited about some things that are happening next week.

That's going to sort of like be a nice touchstone from the lineup conversation that we've been having for the last three weeks.

We'll announce that via Twitter and Facebook and all of the social media is and even our Patreon chat group.

They'll know first. All right. Well, we'll talk to you then.