The Evolution of the Live Show: Marc Myers Joins The What Podcast

It almost seems hard to believe, but is lineup season upon us?

The slow, slow, ever so slow trickle of lineups starting to come out.

We dive into them, and it would surprise people, but we read books, mostly with pictures.

Author Mark Myers with us today, The What Podcast, which bands this year that matter, Brad Steiner,

Lord Taco, and Barry Courter, a fabulous author in his own right.

This week's episode starts right now.

What podcast, which bands this year that matter, Russ Jackson, Mr. Lord, God Almighty Taco,

and Barry Courter.

I'm Brad Steiner.

Nice to see you.

Lord Taco, have you seen the piece of property yet that you are actually Lord of yet?

Have you been by Shogun Manor yet?

Not yet.

I got a new name though.

I'm Frank Barcelona.

Nice to meet you.

Don't give up the bit.

Coming up today, we're talking to Mark Myers from an incredible book, Rock Concert, which

Barry turned me on to.

It's a book basically chronic, chronic.

You tell me, is it a chronicle?

Do you guys call this a chronical ization?

Is that a word?

What do you writers call this?

Yeah, it's a chronology.

Chronology.

The history of live concerts from what do you say, 1950s to basically Live Aid, which

is a fascinating place to end it.

Yeah.

We'll go through that with him here in the coming minutes.

But I wanted to circle around with you guys because I can't believe I'm saying this, but

we might be on the precipice of lineup season.

I can't believe it, but the slow trickle of lineups has started and I woke up today.

There are three music festival lineups that dropped all today.

I'm just looking for them.

Okachobe, which are the three?

Well Okachobe announced and then Sweetwater 420 Fest.

Is it still called Sweetwater 420 Fest or is it just 420 Fest these days?

And then there is a sort of like a baseball integrated music festival that announced today.

But I wanted to focus on Okachobe because I found this to be very interesting.

I don't think that, Taco, you've never been to Okachobe, have you?

Nope.

It would be perfect for you because you can take the bus down.

But it's a different type of festival because you get to camp amongst the festival.

And what I mean by that is there is a, I can't remember what they call the actual place

where you perform, but there's only two stages inside like this wooded area.

It's a circle, right?

It's a circle of woods and you go into the woods and that's where the two main stages

are.

Outside of the circle of trees, that's where all the camping is, but it's also where the

side stages are.

So the stages are sort of like intermixed with the campsites.

And it's sort of what I think Bonnaroo tried to do with the plazas.

If you look at half of the festival lineup from Okachobe, half on the poster and all

the way down, those are the people that you're going to find in and amongst the campsites.

It's really interesting and well done.

They didn't do it last year.

But the other thing I noticed about this lineup is that it has completely turned into a, this

is a dance EDM festival or at least a DJ driven festival, which when I went to one year, that

was not at all what I remember.

I mean, I saw Usher there for crying out loud.

You know, I saw the Lumineers there.

I saw it was not at all this this collection of artists, which, you know, to me, there

are 45 artists there that you could just I don't I've never heard in my life.

Am I looking at this?

I'm looking at the 21 or 22.

Yeah, you got Tame and Pot was the headliner.

Yeah, that's 21.

Yeah, Porter Robinson, Megan, this stallion, Grizz.

Jungle, Gary Clark, Jr.

Yeah, you're it's a you're reading the names that you know.

Yes.

Yes, I am.

Right.

OK, so Porter Robinson, I don't know.

Denzel Curry, Ashnikov, Flaming Lotus, I know a little bit.

Yeah.

And beyond that, no.

Right.

Right.

It is it is a it's really changed in the last couple of years.

So in honor of the Okeechobee lineup releasing today and being full of a whole bunch of DJs

that might as well be DJ Lord Taco, I'm ready to play.

If you guys are ready to play another round of real band or fake band, I don't have a

name for this.

I don't have a name for this game, but I've got a list of real bands that are get your

face off the lineup right now.

Barry Courter, stop looking at the lineup.

I want you.

I've got real bands playing at Okeechobee and fake bands playing at Okeechobee.

You guys tell me which is real and which is not.

OK, all right.

OK, I did so well last time I can't.

OK.

OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.

I don't know.

I can't figure out.

All right.

So this is to go.

Here we go.

Okeechobee March 3rd through 6.

You tell me if it's a real band or a fake band.

Hint of Lavender.

Hint of Lavender is appearing at Okeechobee or not appearing.

OK, no, that's a that's a T.

Your wife sells in her tea shop.

It might be.

It is also a T, but it's also a band that's playing at Okeechobee.

You're both.

It's real.

OK, good start.

Oh, man.

OK, number two, skin clump.

I wish that was real, but I don't think it is.

Yeah, if it's not, it should be.

That is a fake band made up by Brad Steiner, one for both of you on the board.

Actually, just just clump is good.

Yeah, I think so.

Number three, player Dave.

I'm going to say yes.

Yeah, I'll go with I hope he's real player Dave.

Both of you two in a row.

All right.

Number four, synergy.

No, man, that sounds like a bad 80s band.

Real Okeechobee artist or fake Okeechobee artist synergy.

I'm going to say yes.

What did Tako say?

No, I said I said fake.

Barry Courter in the lead is a real band appearing at Okeechobee.

There is.

What about this band, Itchy?

Yes, yes.

Itchy.

Still in the lead, Barry Courter, not a real band, not a real band.

Itchy.

One final one.

Let's see if we'll make this for two points.

I'm pretty sure I've seen Itchy before.

So yeah, what was her name?

No one tell me if this is a real band playing at Okeechobee or not.

Donut Muscles.

Donut Muscles.

They opened for Skinner, didn't they?

Maybe.

I'll say yes.

I'm going to say no.

Barry Courter, big winner today.

I don't think that Lord Taco has won this game ever.

Every time.

Can't you see the

donut muscles open for Skinner on the beach down in Jacksonville?

That's right.

Yeah.

So Okeechobee came out today.

There's also 420 Fest.

Now, Barry, have you ever been to 420 Fest, the one that's originally was created by Sweetwater

Brewing, if I'm not mistaken.

They do it just outside Atlanta.

I have not.

But like I told you, the idea of going to Atlanta for anything is probably not going

to happen.

So if you run through the lineup of 420 Fest for 2022, just run through and check it out.

It's going to be exactly like going up in 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016.

It is the same festival every year.

You know, I know that the string cheese incident people and the widespread panic people and

the fish guys, they all love this stuff so much.

My God, how can you just keep hearing the same things over and over and over?

This is the same festival every year.

OK, so I would want to see Oysterhead, Trey, not so much string cheese and omfres.

That's pretty much the same band.

Well, you want to see Oysterhead, but not Trey?

Trey's in Oysterhead.

Yeah, I know.

I know.

What about Barry, do you want to see Eggplant Revenge?

Yeah.

OK.

Oh, look, did you see who there is there?

Taco Turquoise with Jerry Harrison.

We have another course.

Of course.

Yeah.

And I'm so mad I didn't see.

OK, I'm going to have to rethink.

I might have to go down there.

You know, I wish you would because the only person.

Yeah.

Goose.

JJ Gray.

I like this.

I like this line up.

JJ Gray is by far.

Is there an artist that grates your nerves more than anything else?

JJ Gray is that guy.

I can't do it as much as you.

I've seen him once.

No, I've only seen him once.

He's got this big giant belt buckle.

And I swear to God, my hand to God, I walked up to that show with Bryan Stone, who is the

king of Southern Rock.

This guy just loves that stuff.

It's all he listens to.

I swear to everything, holy Barry and Russ, I walked up to the stage and this is what

came out of his mouth.

How far?

How far?

How far?

How far?

Who, Brad or JJ?

JJ Gray.

Yeah, his name is Brian Barry.

Sorry, it's insufferable.

That guy is absolutely unlistening for me.

OK, but enjoy it.

I mean, that's that's what for twenty.

Fest is, man.

That's what for twenty.

It is well, depending on how they break this up.

Yeah, depending on how they broke this up, there's some stuff I'd like to see.

I really want to see that turquoise.

Yeah, I want to see that show.

It's killing me.

All right.

Who's this?

Who's this?

Snop, dude.

Who's that?

I know, right?

Do you see there again?

Yeah, you know, you might be looking at last year's lineup.

Is he there again?

It says twenty twenty.

This is twenty twenty two.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Look, this is hard stuff.

This is a very hard thing to do.

So I don't mean to dog on them, but my God, this is just the same festival every single

year.

I know.

But man, if he brings Martha and does some cooking demonstrations.

Oh, wait a second.

You're telling me you wouldn't go for that.

I could I could have done the same game with the with the Sweetwater for twenty.

Did you see who's playing this year?

Sex brews.

I was so excited to see sex brews.

And by the way, it's not just sex brews, it's sex brews.

With a question mark.

Yeah.

They're right in front of certainly so.

Oh, God, I do.

Who named Certainly So?

I'm sure it is.

I'm sure it is a great festival.

I'm sure it is wonderfully done.

But man, oh, man, it feels like this is the same.

I mean, like, for instance, just to prove my point, I don't mean belabor this, but let

me go.

You go back to twenty seventeen.

All right.

Widespread panic.

Trey Anastasia, wean slightly stupid Mo.

Lettuce Andersons.

That's the same thing in twenty eighteen.

Pretty good to twenty eighteen string cheese incident.

Up freeze McGee, Tedesky, Trog, Sturgill, Simpson, Joe Russo, Green Sky, Bluegrass.

That was not a bad lineup.

I don't say it is.

I'm not saying it is.

I'm saying it's the same line.

It's the same.

It must work for them.

I want to know who named Certainly So.

Yeah.

I just like to panic.

Ava Brothers, Jason Isbell, Joe Russo, Revolution, Moon Taxly, Claypool, Lenin, Delirium, JJ

Gray.

Man, oh, man.

I mean, God love you.

If you go to this, I'm glad you have a I'm glad you have a fun time.

I hope you have a blast, Barry.

Yeah, we'll see.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Tell me.

So tell me about the guest this week.

Tell me all I need to know about Mark.

Mark is an author journalist for The Wall Street Journal.

He's written a book.

He went back and dug up the history of concerts, basically the chronology of live music concerts

from the fifties to Live Aid, which, like I think I said, it didn't make sense at first,

but when he explained it, stopping there makes perfect sense.

That sort of was the end of that era and the beginning of what we now know is, you know,

concerts, live music.

So yeah, it's fascinating.

I love talking to him.

I hope we'll probably talk to him again.

I hope so.

Yeah, it's a good resource.

Come back.

Let's talk to him and then come back and we'll talk a little ACL Fest next on the What Podcast,

which bands this year that matter.

Yeah, Mark, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Same here.

What part of the country are you in?

Where are you right now?

New York.

OK.

If there's anything that would stun the people that listen to this podcast is that we read

books.

Period.

Yeah, which is which is shocking.

We don't read Barry's articles, but we read books.

It's very weird.

Barry writes for a living.

And I think I've read more of your work than Barry said.

I've known that guy for 10 years.

As you know, Brad, our reach is vast.

Oh, my God.

Unbelievable.

And Michaela, who is your I guess your press agent, Mark, obviously.

Yeah, she hooked us up with Crumban, I believe.

I think it was.

I hope I'm right in saying that it was either that or Sylvanesso.

Either way is very cool.

And she said, would you like to talk to Mark?

And when I saw the title of your book and the theme of the book, I thought this is kind

of what we do.

So right over the plate, right over.

Yeah.

I mean, it was a lob.

So I was like, I'd love to talk to Mark.

And so I reached out to Brad and Russ and said, this, this is exactly what we do.

And especially given what we've just been through and the, you know, the whole history

of I don't know, Mark, if you know what we do is a podcast that started about Bonnarooo.

So it started about that live festival, but it has expanded into festivals in general.

It's great.

So it's a natural fit, right?

For sure.

What this book is about.

So well, Mark, Mark, how did you get your start?

Were you much like Barry and an entertainment writer or a music writer?

How did it all start for you?

It started for me quite differently.

I sort of came up through business writing, tax writing, believe it or not.

What a fascinating topic.

Fascinating.

Where's that book?

Always dreamed of the rock lifestyle.

And then in 2010, I started writing for the Wall Street Journal and wound up writing on

whoa, wait for it, rock.

And it took decades, but the dream was realized.

And so it's so weird.

I started in rock music and now I want to write a book about accounting.

It's so strange.

I trying to go the opposite direction.

It's amazing how things happen.

But is it was just because you were a fan?

Did you play?

No, I did play piano.

I'm a very big jazz fan, have been for years.

In fact, write a jazz blog called jazz wax.com.

It's a daily.

It's been going on since 2007, six days a week.

But for me, it just wasn't a reasonable way to earn a living.

There were other ways to do that.

I started at the New York Times, left there, went into magazines and then went into newsletters

and then finally was sort of writing on jazz and a friend says, you've got to speak to

my editor at the Wall Street Journal.

And I did.

And I've been there ever since as a contributor.

Well, I mean, first off, I think that's incredible that you started something so long ago and

it's still going.

How's the house jazz wax doing these days?

It's great.

It keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Yeah.

Well, as a guy, the reason I ask is because, you know, you get lost in this sort of world.

I live in New Orleans.

So jazz music is everywhere in this town and we'll talk about it constantly, especially

with, you know, radio.

What is that constant bleeping that I keep hearing?

Is that what is that?

Is that just me?

No, I hear that's a copy of my book Rock.

Which we're going to talk about.

Yeah, we are.

Either that or sales.

It's sales of the book.

So so yeah, that's another book.

So the reason I say that is because in the

in this city, it's easy to immerse yourself in.

It's easy to immerse yourself in constant jazz.

But if you don't necessarily know much about it, it's not on the forefront of a conversation,

is it not?

Yeah, yeah.

No, no, it's absolutely true.

But for me, you know, rock, we're all the same generation.

I mean, rock has just always been there for me.

And I've always been curious, more and more curious about it.

But backstage and getting to do interviews.

And I started a column at the Wall Street Journal called Anatomy of a Song, which took

off, which was just a single drill down on one song where the writer and musicians were

interviewed.

I interviewed them and created a narrative from it.

But it's incredibly popular and rock concert.

I've always wondered about the history of the rock concert, not so much the sex, drugs

and rock and roll stuff, but the just the business of it.

How did this thing come about?

How did it evolve from R&B in the early 1950s?

And how did it become this eight, nine billion dollar business?

It was fascinating to track that.

Yeah, let me jump in there because and Brad, you might have been heading that way, but

I want to go ahead and put that point on it.

This is why we started our podcast was because we were fascinated by the infrastructure of

Bonnaroo as much as the what was on stage.

That's interesting.

The fact that they could turn literally a 700 acre farm into the fifth largest city

in Tennessee for six days fascinated us.

And so that's that's why I wanted to talk to you because we've gone from I just watched

the Led Zeppelin.

I know it wasn't Led Zeppelin.

I've seen so many documentaries in the last two weeks.

Grateful Dead?

The well, the Peter Grant interview where it went, it switched from the artist back

in the day, late 60s was getting 20 to 25 percent of the cut and the promoter was getting

the rest.

And Peter Grant with Led Zeppelin said, uh, we're going to flip that.

Just blew my mind because I remember the opinion of Peter Grant back in the day and people

just thought he was the worst, but he really changed everything.

And I know that's a complete sidebar.

We'll get into that in a minute, but it's that evolution that also fascinated me.

And that's why I wanted to talk to you.

So here we are.

And Brad often tells the story.

That's how this podcast got started is we were walking down the road and saw miles and

miles and miles of cable and thought somebody had to put that there, you know.

So maybe that's the same thing.

Sorry to step on you there, Brad, but no, it's OK.

It's exactly where I was going.

When you talk about the business of live shows and live music, you know, you start with the

origin of R&B.

To today, it seems like it was a artist first enterprise there for a while.

Now it feels as though it is all controlled by the promoter and the two large companies

with everybody else sort of sitting around waiting for them to make a decision.

Would you say that's fair?

I think the business has grown exponentially and to the extent that it is a very valuable

business.

Business only becomes a valuable business when there is consolidation and somebody's

got a vision and they're able to figure out how to make money from it.

You have to keep in mind the rock business air quotes wasn't a business until the very

late 60s.

And it wasn't Woodstock.

It really was a lot of these small ex warehouses and former churches that were converted into

hard rock clubs, so to speak, but no alcohol.

They didn't serve alcohol at a lot of these places because obviously they wanted the teen

market and wouldn't have been able to bring them in.

But that's when the business starts to turn.

That's when a guy named Frank Barcelona figures out that the clubs shouldn't be dictating

the terms to the artists in terms of whether they can play at his club and anybody else's

club in town.

Frank Barcelona flips that so that basically the bands coming over from England, Cream,

Led Zeppelin are basically saying to the clubs, unless you have to show us how you're going

to turn us into a big deal in this city, you have to prove to us that you've got marketing

smarts and you've got to prove to us that you've got promotional ability.

If you can do that, we'll play at your club.

And if you can't do that, we're not going to be playing at your club.

We're going to be playing at your rival's club.

So it changed the dynamic of the industry, really, from the promoter standpoint.

Sure.

But the first question comes to mind.

Who was the best at that at the time?

That would be Frank Barcelona.

Yeah.

But was there an artist specifically that would fit in that glove a lot easier than

others?

No.

With the rise of FM radio in the very late 1960s and the so-called second or third British

invasion where you've got album rock coming in, where those albums are getting played

on FM and audiences in the States want to hear them in concert, you've got a lot of

British bands who are coming over.

And initially, a lot of the owners or the managers of these new ballrooms, these new,

what Steve Miller calls psychedelic dungeons, because they're all painted with psychedelic

colors and everyone's sort of cashing in on that.

But you've got a lot of these bands that are coming over and they are suddenly put into

these clubs where the promoter's demands must be met.

And it really has much more to do with the rise of FM radio and the rise of album rock.

That's why the tables are turned.

That's why bands and promoters are able to dictate to clubs what the new standards are

going to be.

I never really thought about it that way, Armand.

It makes sense because prior to that, it was very singles-based, wasn't it?

You would put together a concert with six to eight acts that might have at most three

hits or three songs or one hit that they would play twice or three times.

And now you've got album rock, you've got fans that want to hear an entire album, like

a Led Zeppelin or whoever can do the bigger shows.

And the promoters kind of realized there was a lot of money to be made and they didn't

have to go through a single promoter who owned a city or a large part of the country.

Yeah.

I mean, there's an interesting anecdote in my book, rock concert, that is kind of interesting.

When this guy, Frank Barcelona, goes to a club in Boston, I think it was called the

Psychedelic Supermarket or something like that.

And he says to the guy, hey, I'm going to bring in all these British acts, all these

British bands.

What can you do for them in terms of marketing?

And the guy goes, I don't even want to hear anything more about it.

And the guy goes, well, what's the problem?

He goes, I know you're going to bring in Jerry and the Pacemakers and Freddie and the Dreamers

and I'm not interested in that stuff.

I don't want to hear it.

And Barcelona keeps trying to cut in and say, no, no, this isn't those guys.

And he goes, I'm not interested.

I'm just not interested.

So Barcelona then goes to see Don Law in Boston, who is the major, major promoter in the

New England, always has been and still is today, and gave Don Law the business because

Don Law was open to hearing about all these British bands coming in that were hard rock.

It wasn't all this pop stuff about, as you were talking about, the AM radio stuff.

It was the FM radio guys that he was bringing in.

And that changes things considerably because the hard rock guys can play for two, three

hours.

The singles guys could play for like 20 minutes and suddenly they were out of songs.

Are we talking like give me an artist just for frame of reference, like Dire Straits.

Would that be one?

Well, they're later.

I mean, if we're talking about 6970, we're talking about Led Zeppelin.

Zeppelin was the big one.

We're talking about Jethro Tull.

You're talking about progressive rock and hard rock as it's emerging.

So it's those kinds of bands that are being brought in.

Sure.

And yeah.

The interesting thing that Barry, you said is single based and then became album rock

based.

Fast forward to today, where if you put out an album, you are on an island by yourself.

Nobody's putting out albums anymore.

An album today is a lost leader.

All the money.

This is why the pandemic was so catastrophic to the business and why so many of these artists

are freaking out and so many of these companies, Live Nation, they're all freaking out because

they don't know what the next business model is.

Is it streaming or is it live?

But when you go out today, your money is made on the road.

Your money is not made on an album.

Your album, basically when your album comes out, your record company carves it up.

They slice it up like a loaf of bread and it all goes up on YouTube for free.

How do you make money if your music instantly is free?

Well, you make it by touring.

But if you can't tour, you better hope a shoe store is hiring because there's nothing really

as a musician, there's nothing more that these poor guys can do.

If they can't tour, recording isn't going to make them much money.

The book is a rock concert.

You went through a bunch of different things.

I want one little excerpt where Bob Eubanks was trying to book a show.

Now if you don't know who Bob Eubanks is, let me feel pretty old here.

He was a game show host, but also before that, he was a radio guy.

He was a radio guy.

He was as a fellow radio guy.

I just this would never happen today.

There's just no chance that this would possibly.

How in the world did that come about?

How did Bob Eubanks get into show promotion?

Well, he had a little club in LA that they sort of booked bands in there.

He's a partner in this little club.

He wanted to move more into promotion, more into booking bands.

He was sort of excited by that, animated by it.

The station that he was on, I can't remember the name, you probably do, but it was all

the leading DJs in LA at the time.

It was just a murderer's row of DJs.

He was looking for another outlet for himself.

He wanted to book this band called The Beatles into the Hollywood Bowl.

Their manager would only, it was 25,000 bucks.

That's what he had to pay to get The Beatles.

He found a way.

I mean, keep in mind, Sinatra was getting 10,000, Ella Fitzgerald was getting 10,000

at the Hollywood Bowl.

Brian Epstein wanted 25 grand.

Bob Eubanks found a way to mortgage his house and come up with the money and then went to

the Hollywood Bowl and said, if I can get The Beatles, will you let me book them?

They said, yeah.

Then he sort of worked two sides until he finally got them.

He was the one who booked them into the Hollywood Bowl for all three concerts out there.

Hey, Barry, just letting you know, this radio guy ain't that smart.

I'm not going to be able to figure that out.

I promise you.

You know, it's so funny.

It totally random, but I'm just sitting here thinking in our city, Mark, we have a park

called Warner Park, which was built because several of the business leaders wanted to

build, bring Billy Graham to town.

So they took out loans, just like you're talking about mortgage houses and they built this

park.

So I had no idea about that, actually.

Yeah.

Warner Park was built to bring Billy Graham.

For rock listeners, it's Billy Graham, the televangelist, not Bill Graham.

Yeah, yeah.

From San Francisco.

Not the, yeah.

Just to distinguish.

But I'm just, when you were saying that, I was like, yeah, that's what people did.

And I was trying to think back in the late sixties and seventies, I was little, but I

remember the zeppelin and I remember the who, and I remember all that coming in the, the

advent of big festival or big arena rock or big stadium, I should say.

Somebody saw there was a chance like Bob Eubanks to make money.

How much did that cost Bob Eubanks, by the way?

He had to come up with twenty five grand.

Yeah.

Twenty five grand.

Twenty five thousand bucks.

I mean, do the math.

That's probably a couple of hundred thousand dollars back then.

No kidding.

He made a little amount of money, but mortgaging his house, the banks wouldn't get it.

He went into the traditional banks and they would say, well, why do you want to mortgage

your house?

And he goes, well, I want to book this band called the Beatles.

And they said, have a nice day.

Yeah.

You know, they just weren't going to loan him the dough.

Yeah, that's what I've never heard of them.

That's what I'm trying to say.

I'm trying to imagine all of that.

You know, the my, I have two older brothers that are musicians and my dad would, would

always say, you know, they would come to him and say, we just need one more bank loan.

We just need one more piece of equipment and we're going to hit it big.

I can only imagine, you know, Bob, you banks go into a bank for 25 grand.

I'll stop you right there.

Just think about saying to yourself, I can make money off of a show in twenty twenty

one.

Nobody's I mean, how many people are really making that many that much money off a show

is just one off shows.

I mean, it's impossible to do it on your own today anyway, because of the consolidation.

You know, you got Live Nation.

There's like five companies that book all these shows.

You can't even get near a decent venue.

Exactly.

To make money because these, you know, they're all monopolized.

It's not monopoly, but they're dominated.

Right.

That a word they're dominated by a small.

It's like trying to come up with a new way of it's like you have a great idea for a new

computer.

You know, good luck.

So you'll make three of them or four of them.

Your friends will have them, but you're not going to sell it like Apple in terms of distribution

and everything else that these guys can can come up with.

I'm glad I'm glad that you you went there because that was my exact point of trying

to bring up the Bob Eubanks story is like there is no possible way that even the small.

Well, there is a possible way.

But this is why the smaller venues are dying and falling apart, because they can't even

sustain the model anymore.

They're getting gobbled up.

I mean, the amount of hatred you walk into any venue in the city, the amount of hatred

you will hear about, you know, Live Nation or A.E.G., you'll hear it within seconds.

Seconds.

Because they dominate.

So yeah, that's what I did.

I mean, in the book, that's what I did.

I mean, I spoke with more than 90 people who had basically front row seats to the entire

rise of the industry from 19.

The book spans from 1950 to 1985 to live aid.

So it's from the very beginning of the so-called rock concert model all the way through.

And I've you know, I interview rock stars.

I interview promoters, managers, roadies.

I mean, anyone who is connected with the rise of this form, the rock concert, it's and it's

in their voice.

You get to hear what they sound like talking about this.

And it's fascinating, isn't it, to sort of see how one thing leads to another and all

these people who are sort of trying to figure out what to do suddenly start figuring it

out and they start to build it and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

Can we come let's come back to that, because I think that's probably where we want to go.

But I want to just what this seems like a good point now that we've talked for a little

while.

Did you approach it as a rock and roll fan or as a tax reporter or just a simple reporter

or as a fan?

Was it more business?

You know what I mean?

No, no, no, no, no.

As a fan, I write on rock for the I write on rock for the Wall Street Journal.

So I'm not writing on the business of music.

Those reporters are in L.A. I write on the music itself.

And you know what I mean?

There is a different way to approach it.

I mean, this is this is from a fan's this is this is a fan's book.

If you are the if if the if your first rock concert was your rite of passage as a teenager,

then this is your book.

It's not a business book.

It's just the rise of this thing called the rock concert, which happens to be a business.

But it's all you know, everybody who's quoted.

There are no business people quoted in this book.

I mean, the only business people are the entrepreneurs who put on the rock concerts.

After that, it's Alice Cooper.

You know, it's Bob Weir.

It's it's it's Roger Waters.

I mean, it's rock stars and the people that turn this crazy, weird thing into something

that kept getting bigger and bigger because you and me all went to these concerts.

And we found that this was an amazing thing as a kid to go to something like this, where

all you saw around you were other kids just like you.

And there were no parents there.

And you were on your own.

I mean, it was an amazing, amazing.

It was a liberating at least it was for me.

I mean, I'm maybe a little older.

My first concert was in 1933.

No, I'm just kidding.

My first rock concert was in 1974.

Yeah, it would have been close.

We'd have been.

But that's why I ask is there is there are a lot of different ways to look at it.

And maybe I'm 58.

So I'm probably older than you.

Yeah, not quite.

And so, you know, music and Bonnarooo.

And this is why I wanted to talk to you and why we do this.

It has that magic, you know, pixie dust, unicorn element to it that we all know and love.

And then it has the business side.

And somehow Brad and Russ and I try to merge the two.

I don't know if we do it well enough or not, but the more I think about it, you know, you

can get too far into the weeds and it loses that magic.

And I don't want to do that.

So yeah, I want to eventually get into the, you know, where it may be going and all that.

But it is interesting to see the evolution of it all.

Because I mean, the best way I think can think of to describe it, it's, you know, it's the

Wizard of Oz.

Nobody wants to look behind the curtain.

You know, we all have our we all have our rock and roll legends and all these documentaries

and all that come out.

Sometimes I don't want to see them.

You know what I mean?

Oh, you don't want to go in the kitchen to see how your food is made.

You just want to eat your steak.

You don't want to see the sausage, whatever you want to have.

Not pretty what goes on in the kitchen.

It's exactly right.

But at the same time, it's interesting how something small becomes something big.

And that happens not because companies get involved, but because an entire youth culture,

an entire generation decides that they're fine.

You know, keep in mind before 1950, before 1955, there's no music for kids.

The music industry never bothered creating any music for teens.

The music was for adults.

They were children's records.

Right.

And then there was music for adults and kids like in the 1940s and before, they pretty

much had to listen to their parents records, whether that was Glenn Miller or, you know,

Doris Day or whatever it was, they had to find, you know, and back then, I mean, kids,

kids wore their parents clothes.

Kids were in a rush to look old.

They dressed old.

You couldn't really do anything until you were 21 as a kid.

There was nothing, nothing for the teen market.

Zero.

And rock and roll is the first form of music that is literally designed for and marketed

to teenagers.

And finally, a youth culture has market power.

Kids can now control what they want, what they're going to buy, what they don't like,

who they want to see in concert and who their heroes are.

And that had been unheard of before the rise of rock and roll.

I don't know, Mark.

I know a lot of kids love Perry Cuomo.

They are big, big fans of Perry.

That's true.

Hey, so you forgot about that.

You talked to, you just said Cuomo, by the way.

Whatever.

I know.

Perry Cuomo.

I don't know.

Cuomo.

Whatever.

So the, you talk to, you talk to artists, you talk to fans.

Is there a moment when we talk to Bonnarooo fans, they all say the one show that changed

it all for them and their favorite Bonnarooo show is always, it will always forever be

Paul McCartney.

Nine times out of 10, it will be McCartney.

Bonnarooo was, was the, was the, the show of all shows.

And was there one that you kept hearing about over and over and over with all your conversations

in this book?

No, there were the big concerts, you know, the Who's concerts in the 70s, Pink Floyd's

concerts, you know, they were theatrical, they were visual.

I mean, before MTV, you know, you get the wall, you know, Pink Floyd, where everything

is so cinematic and visual while you're listening to the music, it added that extra dimension.

But what's really funny to me is, you know, when you ask about this so-called question,

you know, you can ask people like, do you know where your car keys are right now?

And they'd go, I'm not sure.

And they'd say, your sister-in-law's birthday, do you know your sister-in-law's birthday?

And they were, I think it's in May or something.

And you ask them a series of questions like that.

And then I would say, what was your first rock concert?

And it was like, oh, my first rock concert.

Well, I went with my two friends and we went down in the green Chevy.

And when we got there, we went in and I remember we were sitting in A6, 7 and 8.

I mean, they know every detail about their first, everybody knows their first rock concert

inside and out.

And it's kind of interesting, you know, to Barry's point about it being this seminal

moment, this rite of passage that it became this transition.

I think I described it in the book as almost like passing through the mirror, like Alice

in Wonderland or passing into a different world.

It's like you went into your first concert, a kid, and you came out a young adult.

I mean, you went in, you came out a different person than the person who went in.

You suddenly had responsibility for yourself and you were the one who made choices about

things and there were bad things that you could do and good things.

And you kind of figured that out.

Maybe you did a mix of them, but you were very different passing through that rock concert.

You came out a different individual.

I think you're right about that because my first one was Celine Dion and Michael Bolton,

UTC Arena.

So I came out different guy after that.

I thought it's such a great point, Mark.

My first ticket that I was allowed to buy was Leonard Skinner and the plane crashed about

three weeks ahead.

Amazing.

The first show I ever actually got to see was Marty Robbins.

But yes, Ginnard, you're you're right.

Whether your parents took you and stayed in the building with you and you were able to

go off with your friends or they dropped you off was pretty much a huge moment.

Right.

I think you got it exactly right.

I mean, look at the Beatles at Shea.

Right.

There's fifty five thousand kids.

Most of them are girls and they're screaming their lungs out.

And anybody who knows anything about New York City knows there are two ways to get to Shea

Stadium.

One is by subway, which most of those kids didn't take.

So their parents had to have dropped them off.

I remember writing this article on the Beatles at Shea for the Wall Street Journal.

And I'm thinking to myself, well, if the parents drove them there, why would they bother?

I mean, most parents would say, hey, I'm not taking you or I don't want to do that or your

father's coming home late or we don't have an extra car.

They wouldn't have had fifty five thousand fans at that stadium if not for one reason,

which is that parents did drive the kids there.

But then they went next door to the World's Fair.

The World's Fair was the nineteen sixty four or five World's Fair in New York, where you

get the introduction of the Mustang.

It's one of the most spectacular World's Fairs in U.S. history.

The parents all went, took their kids, dropped the kids off and then went to eat Belgian

waffles at the World's Fair right next door and flushing.

So it's kind of interesting that the and this is how I ended the article, which is kind

of interesting, too.

The parents thought they saw the future at the World's Fair.

Their kids actually did.

You know, great.

I never knew that.

That is actually I didn't even realize that the World's Fair was happening at the same

time.

But just as an aside, I'm a huge Mets fan.

So the reason they don't know many people know this, but the reason why the guy who

owned the Mets at the time built Shea Stadium where he built it was because of cars.

He thought that everybody was going to be transporting via the automobile to to to

the stadiums and then you get to twenty twenty two and you know, you have to have you have

to have a multiplex and condos and restaurants and bars and entire cityscape around the the

stadium now just for these things to survive.

You neither here nor there.

So in the in the book, though, you also keep talking about you.

Well, you don't keep talking.

You get into best live albums, best concert films, best rock documentaries.

The thing that I found to be interesting is that you make the distinction between concert

films and rock documentaries, which are very different.

And the fact that in twenty twenty one rock concert films now, especially post covid,

may be the most useless medium in all of music.

It does nothing for anyone anymore.

Yeah.

I mean, what I did in the back of the book, because I figured while I was writing it,

you know, I was going to hear incessantly, you never did the who it leads.

You don't have the Allman Brothers at this place.

This particular concert.

I can't believe you forgot that.

I can't you know, it's like rather than hear that steady, steady drone of those those quote

complaints, I figured let me let me provide 50 of the 50 of my favorite concerts, 50 favorite

rock films and 50 favorite documentaries.

So that if you wanted to know more about the 1950s, there are five excellent documentaries.

You want to know more about the dead.

There's a great six part or that's streaming now.

You want to know about which which rock concerts are most important through the years.

Well, here's my 50.

It just gives it.

It just gives the reader an extra place to think about, you know, what you can't fit

everything in.

If I I literally had to cut this book down almost by a third, maybe almost a half.

You can't.

I realized finally, and my editor realized you just need to tell a story.

You can't load.

It can't be so jam packed that people have to buy a pickup truck to buy it.

Right.

You can say, here's your 15 volume set of rock concert and that every concert you ever

wanted to know about, it's in here.

You have to just tell a great story.

That's what I was focused on.

And those lists that you made, did you cut it off to 85 to.

I think they're 50 each.

Right.

I mean, I mean, to 1985, you cut it off in 1980.

I cut it off.

I cut it off with Live Aid because a number of the people I interviewed, it was interesting.

A number of the people I interviewed said with the rise of Ticketmaster and tickets

going to triple digits, you know, going from free and like fifteen dollars, suddenly three

three eighty five a seat.

Live Aid was the last old school, old school large concert put on by old school promoters.

You know, the co promoters in the States was Bill Graham of San Francisco fame and Larry

Magan of Philadelphia, where the event was held.

And it was old school.

It was these guys had come up in the 1960s.

They you know, they had gone to Alan Freed's rock and roll shows at the at the Paramount,

Brooklyn Paramount.

So that Live Aid kind of is the end of an era before things start to change.

Doesn't mean rock concerts die.

Doesn't mean that rock concerts weren't still kind of affordable after.

It's just that it was a transition moment.

Live Aid where the old ended and the new began.

Did it feel like there was a direct line?

Were you able to draw a direct line or did it feel like it from the 1950s to eighty five?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's what this book is about.

You literally read through and see how one thing leads to another.

Why one event caused something else?

Why external factors cause like, for instance, the wireless guitar wireless guitar liberates

everybody on stage?

I mean, probably Angus of ACDC would not exist if not for the wireless guitar.

You know, it used to be that the pig tail cables, wires that ran from the guitar to

the amps would tangle everybody up.

You couldn't move around.

You had to stay real still, especially in the dark.

These things would become frayed if you if you roam too far and suddenly yanked on it,

somebody would have to rush on stage and repair it and tape it up.

The wireless guitar liberates.

I'll give you another one that liberates arenas when arena rock begins after the disaster

at Altamont, where every locality in the country refuses to grant permits to outdoor concerts

and rock has to go indoors into these new sports arenas.

The problem arena is faced is that they were only selling about probably 60 percent of

the house.

And that's because the stage people people could only the artists were facing one direction.

So you couldn't sell seats behind the artist.

And then the speakers were sitting on the stage.

They were mounted on the stage.

They were all stacked up.

You know, you could see remember the Grateful Dead concerts with all these Marshall amps

stacked all the way up to the ceiling to the roof.

So these these speakers would block seats.

You couldn't sell seats.

You couldn't charge, you know, twenty five dollars or twenty dollars and and charge somebody

twenty dollars in the front row and then charge somebody else twenty dollars where they couldn't

see the band half the time.

It's not until riggers not rigor mortis, but riggers guys who could hoist speakers, guys

who had worked on Disney on parade, all of these big arena kind of entertainment things,

ice capades, not until they not until these guys started to move into the rock business

where bands suddenly realized these guys could hoist speaker systems up to the ceiling and

liberate enormous amounts of revenue of worth of seating in arenas and that they could sell

the seats that previously they couldn't sell.

So it's little external things like this that grow the business.

I hate to ask is this book is coming out in what a month?

November 9th.

Are you are you already thinking about part two?

It's a possibility.

You know, it's it's something it's something it's it's obviously something to consider.

We'll see how the first part of the first book does.

But the this book is people have read it up.

They're telling me I can't stop reading it.

I'm on the edge of my seat all the time.

You know, it's just I can't wait to see what happens next because I'm writing it.

I'm writing it like I would write anything dramatically.

Every chapter leaves you hanging.

You know, you start the next one.

What's going to happen now?

Yeah.

And these boys.

Wow.

This is how they got their start in these little concerts.

Wow.

And people are just you know, what I'm hearing is that people are on the edge of their seat.

They're reading it like it's the born identity.

I mean, it's just it's just constantly on the edge of your seat.

Well, I'm asking because as I mean, it 85 is a is a great place to end because in my

mind, I'm sitting here thinking of all the changes that have happened since I saw Carlos

Santana last Tuesday.

And I remember remarking to my my people that I was sitting with.

I remember the days of general seating, which was pre the who Cincinnati, you know, when

you got there early and you sprinted to the front of the stage and it was great.

I miss those days because last Tuesday during Santana, if somebody got up and wanted to

dance in the aisle, the dance police were immediately on top of you to make you go sit

down, which I get.

I'm not picking on the venue.

I get it.

There's insurance.

There's all kinds of safety reasons.

I'm not.

But it it took away a lot of the rock and roll vibe to those pre 80 whatever that was

seven concerts.

Yeah.

You know, where you were anything could happen.

And that was, you know, I hate to say it.

I hate to sound.

I hate to say this, but it was a different time.

I know it was a gentler.

People get off my lawn.

You know, now you go to a concert and you want to strangle the couple that gets up in

front of you to dance, you know, because they can't go in the aisle.

So you know, this couple that are on their first date suddenly get up and start dancing

to Hall and O.

So it's like you can't say anything.

Yeah.

So you have paid a lot of money for this ticket.

So you have to stand up and you don't want to stand up.

And then, you know, the people behind you are pissed off.

So everybody in succession seating is now pissed.

Not only are you pissed, you're not closer, but now you're pissed.

Your view is being blocked by people.

Maybe the rigor should come in and hoist the dancers up to the ceiling.

Yeah, it is.

It's interesting though, how it all changed and to go back.

We were talking about the ride of passage that to me, and I've said this many times

on their show, Mark concerts to me, I used to have to go to review all the ones that

came into town.

And they were, it got stale because of what we were just talking about.

You know, I get my seat.

They all look the same.

It didn't matter whether it was a country show or a heavy metal show.

It was three minutes, say hello, Chattanooga, five songs, introduced the band.

I mean, they were all the same and it kind of, and then when I started going to Bonnarooo,

it was this whole awakening sort of thing.

It's like, this is what I love about live music.

And I was all in again.

So that's what, and that's not what this book is about, but I'm just saying that it.

No, but going forward, you make a great point, which is that the boot, let's call them boutique

festivals become kinder, more intimate spaces where you're meeting people and you're seeing

bands up close and people are dancing because it's a standup situation.

Arenas are a sit down situation.

And in some ways it's relative is, are these so-called psychedelic dungeons.

I was talking about these old factories and old churches that leased space out to these

entrepreneurs who were having rock bands come in for five nights.

That you could, there were no, there was no seating in those places, just like the festivals,

a lot of them where you were standing and you were dancing and you were talking to your

friends.

You're making friends with people next to you and where do you live?

And oh yeah, you know, I might know if somebody who went to that college, you know, it's

just a much more conversational human experience.

Of course, we just don't know how things are going to end up when we come out of the pipeline

on this COVID thing.

But there was also the, sorry, Brad, there was also the fear, not the fear, the excitement.

You didn't know what might happen at a rock show in those psychedelic dens.

You know, there was always that chance.

First of all, your parents, as you said earlier, your parents weren't there, right?

You know, which made it exciting to begin with.

And you were with strangers.

You didn't know what was going to happen, especially-

The other thing is don't forget about the power of the solo.

Today we take solos for granted, right?

So, you know, everybody's got a drum solo, everybody's got a guitar solo.

So solos today is like big deal, right?

But you know, Indigada Da Vida would never have been a name anybody remembered if not

for a little bit longer drum solo that happened in that album in like 1970 or 71.

So the solo didn't exist back then because AM radio didn't allow a three minute 45 to

have a solo.

Most of the, you know, 90% of those 45s, there's no solo.

But it's not until you get album rock and it's not until you get to FM radio and better

bands where the solo becomes much more prevalent because they're real musicians.

They're not wrecking crew studio musicians.

They're real musicians who studied and trained and it's a different scene.

It's a different experience.

So the excitement that you're talking about, that anticipation of a solo during a Santana

concert at Madison Square Garden in the early 70s.

Oh my God, did you hear that?

He played such an amazing solo.

It wouldn't even be talked about today.

But that's what was exciting back then that a solo might be played.

And today what you're talking about is that excitement that who knows what might happen?

Who knows what they might play?

Maybe suddenly somebody plays Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Cold Band.

Somebody will play a Beatles song or a punk band will play something that's completely

unexpected or some heavy metal band will play a carpenter's song, something really weird.

Or a guest will show up.

Yeah, you wait for that.

Exactly.

It's exciting.

I mean, I will say that the thing that, I don't know, I hate to put it this way, but

it is kind of depressing, you know, hearing you guys talk about especially album rock

and the heyday of it and knowing that that's never coming back.

You know, there's just not a world where it is built for big, giant shows in big, large

spaces.

Frankly, there's only a dozen or two dozen artists that could pull that off to begin

with right now.

You know, the money doesn't work.

It would be totally cost preventative for you and the family to go to that show or you

and the wife to go to that show.

You know, it just doesn't.

And then you get it's changed.

You go to a Paul McCartney concert today and you look around and you realize there are

kids there who are brought there by their grandparents.

Now, that's not a bad thing today because grandparents and their kids get along great.

But it's not the same.

But it's not really the music's fault or the arena's fault.

There's been a shift.

And you used to go to rock concerts, as I said, because it was a rite of passage.

You transition from one phase in life to another or at the start, you came out and began the

phase.

They transitioned to a different level.

Today kids find their rite of passage on their phones.

On TikTok.

They don't need to go to a rock concert and sit in the dark and listen to loud music and

raise lighters in the air.

I mean, now if they're having a hard time in school from a teacher, they're getting

bullied or something's happening in their life, they're on their phone in real time

texting their friends or they're on their computer or they're on their FaceTime or any

number of platforms that are in their hand.

They don't need the rock.

The rock concert is something they go each year with grandma to see the who or whoever

they're seeing.

Where that was a communal experience in 1975, our communal experience now is sharing memes

that everybody seems to quote when they walk down the street.

Mark, what a fascinating conversation.

The book is rock concert.

We'll post a link at the what underscore podcast on all the socials.

I really appreciate you taking the time and diving into this book.

It's such a fascinating topic.

And part two from 85 to 2020, you know, you need to have it now.

If you need some DJs to start booking some shows, I'll, you know, put up the house, which

by the way, I have made a note and I don't really take many notes, but I've written down

today that my new synonym to check into hotels will be Frank Barcelona.

I'm going to be Frank Barcelona from now on.

It's like a global businessman name, you know, like Joe Paris or, you know, Tony London.

Frank Barcelona.

Man of intrigue, man of rock concerts and intrigue.

Man of rock concerts.

Thank you so much, Mark.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

It was a joy bouncing it around with you.

It was really a lot of fun.

Yeah, I think you should call it.

I think the kids would call it chopping it up.

I think you're right.

OK, thanks.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Thanks.

Fascinating.

Good chat with Mark Myers.

The book is rock concert.

Talk to all these DJs.

Never checked in with me.

Never gave a old guy call.

How old were you in 85?

You don't you bear.

Do you really want to know?

That's what I thought.

Do you really want to know?

I mean, I'm not a young man hitting my 40th birthday, but I was four.

I was four.

Yeah.

So your memories of Live Aid probably didn't make the book.

You know what?

Brad Kidd had some deep thoughts about Live Aid that he had a love to share.

So this weekend, I'm going to a weekend two of ACL Fest.

I was not planning on going, but the last second things just sort of worked out.

I'm Barry Courter, very excited to share with you that I will be seeing Duran Jones, the

indications on a pre show.

I'll be seeing Duran Jones on Friday.

Then I'll be seeing Aaron Frazier on Saturday.

I've got an entire weekend of Duran Jones, the indications set for myself.

And then on Friday, the big headliners at Friday or Saturday.

No, it's Friday.

Big headliner on Friday, George Strait.

Haco, do you want to ask him or should I ask him?

Ask him what?

Is he actually going to see a show or is this all?

Is this another weekend of dinner with Brad?

Well, well, Saturday, it's a very special sushi dinner that we have.

No, no, don't do the sushi dinner.

Don't do it.

Had can we is there a poster?

Is there a dinner with Brad ACL?

I you know what?

I'm going to put up a lineup of just the menu items that I want.

I want to have a festival poster.

Just my dinner place.

I want to see it.

I want to see it in some sort of psychedelic.

I will say, I see a trip when when we when this lineup first came out,

we were very excited about it.

But once I started diving in, not that excited.

Yeah, I love it pretty quick.

You know, I didn't get to do my picks for Bonnarooo.

So I'll go through really quickly the things that I want to see at ACL Fest.

Duran Jones at three thirty on Friday is then I get.

Well, hang on.

I got I got Duran Jones on Friday.

Then I've got Erika Badu and Black Pumas later that night.

And then George Strait at the same time as Miley Cyrus.

I will be choosing George Strait on Friday.

On Saturday, very excited.

I'll be seeing Aaron Frazier and then I will be going to dinner.

And then on Sunday, I will be watching the Washington football game

and then going to see cautious clay and then coming home.

So that's my big ACL weekend.

I can't wait to share what I see and experience with you guys next.

We're going to have to have an over under taco lineup.

Yeah.

How many of these he actually makes?

I mean, how many I actually made?

I only listed four artists that I was going to go see.

I know.

I know.

And I'm the over under is probably two.

But how did I become the guy that is made fun of for not going to shows?

I go to every show at Bonnarooo.

At Bonnarooo.

Yeah, because there's no dinner options.

Because you can't do anything else.

You can't do anything because you know why?

Because you're there.

There it is.

You're there.

You might as well go.

Hopefully, next week, we'll have ACL wrap up.

Lord Taco, Barry Courter, thank you for your show.

We'll talk to you next week on the What Podcast.

Love you.

Thank you.

Bye.